RAPT Interview
Too many Christians don’t feel confident to disciple someone else in the faith. And with our world full of people who are curious about God yet skeptical about his church, we need discipleship more than ever. That’s the need David Sunde seeks to fill with honest discussions, books, videos, and discipleship cohorts. Join our conversation to learn more about some of David’s passions: semiotics, spiritual rhythms, small-batch disciple-making, his Norwegian heritage, and more. [RAPT Interviews]
QUESTION #1: ACQUAINT
There’s much more to food than palate and preference. How does a go-to meal at your favorite hometown restaurant reveal the true you behind the web bio?
Austin is such a competitive foodie town. With as many closings as openings, it’s hard not to be a little snobby as I travel. So when someone launches their culinary dream around a burger-only (as in singular option), you go just to say, “Bless your heart” (and hope they didn’t sign a long lease).But when a p rofessional skater teams up with a Michelin star-rated chef, I got curious and then hooked! Maybe the second-best part is the name—literally, four initials: N.A.D.C. You see the “menu” and smile. Now you get it. Under their solitary entrée item, the name is spelled out for any would-be special needs patron order: Not A D--- Chance. Ha-ha! It’s just so punk rock!
I love that they’re not catering to the masses with the edible. They’re owning their craft like a burger boutique. Passion is doing the one thing you can’t not do and doing it with your whole heart! David Whyte offered a game-changing definition of renewal: “The antidote to exhaustion isn’t rest. It’s wholeheartedness!” Nothing celebrates “less is more” like wholehearted as the “secret sauce.” I love that they’re in the customer service business without enabling consumerism. The paradox of choice reveals how more options create decision-making paralysis—most often followed by regret. I love that the concept and the burger are equally interesting in their simplicity. And I love how their $16 as-is burger tastes in my mouth.
QUESTION #2: REVEAL
We’ve all got quirky proclivities and out-of-the-way interests. So what are yours? What so-called “nonspiritual” activity (or activities) do you love engaging in, which also help you find essential spiritual renewal?
Growing up as the son of a Norwegian immigrant in San Francisco, I loved exploring cultures, especially Nordic. Winter Olympics are the best because when a country of less than 5 million can dominate skiing, it’s a source of pride. I make really good lefse (the Nordland way, like Jesus) and heart waffles.
I look forward to the one-and-a-half days a year in Austin when I can actually wear the handsewn Norwegian sweater by Mom, which is patterned after the one the crown prince wore at the ’96 Olympics in Lillehammer. I made my mom really proud when I dug into our heritage by naming our kids Bjorn and Annika. And then there’s the relationships, the hospitality that comes when you don’t get to see each other often but share a name. Our home has too many rosemaling paintings, trolls on shelves, oil paintings of fjords, and images of the motherland.
I think one of the most important yet least understood words is “provenance.” It’s the story behind the item. If identity is narrative, then provenance is the narrator. One of the best and hardest reminders is that my life is not my own. And I’m at my best when I can give a grateful nod to those who’ve sacrificed and paid a debt so that I can enjoy my life today.
Retracing our family lines inevitably leads to something socially unacceptable and a little wonky. Maybe that’s why I appreciate Matthew’s Gospel, which opens with a genealogy. It tells the story like a deeply southern woman said while living in Tuscaloosa, Alabama: “Honey, we’re not asking if anyone in your family’s crazy. We’re asking which ones!” And, after pausing for a moment, “And if you can’t think of anyone, it’s probably you!” It's comforting to know that the greatest human being ever to live came from imperfect people with checkered pasts. Identity is important, but not if it can’t be redeemed.
QUESTION #3: CONFESS
Every superhero has a weakness. Every human, too. We’re just good at faking it. But who are we kidding? We’re broken and in this thing together. So what’s your kryptonite, and how do you hide it?
Identity is the thing about us that we cannot change and do not earn. We’re always “in Christ.” As Christians, we’re always children of God. Just like our kids, we all seek approval, acceptance, love, comfort, and a second chance. This is all done and done in Christ.
I wonder if my kryptonite is letting myself become underwhelmed by God. I have a great work ethic with a seductive shadow side that can subtly operate from a place of scarcity. I often wrestle with an “older brother” syndrome (from the Parable of the Prodigal Son), which I think qualifies as the opposite of an imposter syndrome.
I can be pretty low-maintenance and dutiful in serving God—until I’m not. I have “come to Jesus talks” with myself, where I have to reconcile what I know is true about the character and nature of God and how I feel in a given season. Unmet expectations with God rob me of greater levels of joy. But I always seem to meander back to some version of “Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief.” That’s the thing with kryptonite. It only affects you when you’re in front of it. It’s crazy (maybe unsettling) to think that God redeems the kryptonite to draw us near.
QUESTION #4: FIRE UP
Tell us about your toil. How are you investing your professional time right now? What’s your current obsession? And why should it be ours?
2023 was an amazing transition year from 20-plus years of pastoral ministry to serving the church in what I hope will become more acute ways through teaching, writing, and coaching. I am releasing a new book called Small-Batch Disciplemaking: A Rhythm for Training the Few to Reach the Many (NavPress 2024).
Too many Christians who experience the whole menu of church programming feel ill-equipped to apprentice a new or younger seeker—compiled from coaching, mentoring, and discipling people over the last two decades, from college students to empty nesters. My new book is better suited as a field guide than a book club. It’s more a tour guide than a travel agent. It’s embarking on a relational journey to incarnate faith, leverage it for the benefit of others, and spiritually reproduce faith in those closest.
To coincide with the book release, I’m excited to launch a scattered ecosystem of disciple-making cohorts. These are grassroots, localized, peer-led communities. Imagine having the relational infrastructure to find your voice spiritually and talk to identify and articulate the difference Christ is making. Together, it’s about discovering a “lab” to experiment with faith and mission in community. The end game is that each person might discern one person they might invite to be an apprentice. The difference between an inheritance and a legacy is this: An inheritance is what we leave for someone. A legacy is what we leave in them.
I’m also invested in a doctoral program in Semiotics, Culture, and the Church. It’s been the most stimulating spiritually and intellectually in decades. As part of it, I’ve combined my passions for culture, the church, and developmental relationships by deeply diving into the last 2,000 years of disciple-making and revival movements.
QUESTION #5: BOOST
Cashiers, CEOs, contractors, or customer service reps, we all need grace flowing into us and back out into the world. How does the Holy Spirit invigorate your work? And how do you know it’s God when it happens?
Grace is an interesting word that we derive from the Greek word charis, which is where we get the word charismatic. It simply means “gift.” Like a performer who has the “it” factor. Others might be more talented, but there are those with an intangible capacity that’s hard to teach. I like to think of the gift of God’s Spirit as giving me agency to do what I can’t do on my own. I try to seek the Spirit to animate in me what I can’t manufacture on my own. Seriously, I dare you to read the list below without a name, face, or experience coming to mind. I see the Holy Spirit able to offer:
A greater capacity to love. Seriously, loving the unlovable, particularly those who’ve hurt me? Yes, please.
A greater strength for obedience. My willpower has a limited runway to sustain a charitable mood—until I have found the grace to keep going.
A greater boldness in my witness. Ever had a conversation with someone in a difficult spot? You didn’t prepare and couldn’t recreate the conversation if you tried. What’s more, you need help to recall precisely what you said. All you know is that you shared meaningful insight, counsel, or comfort. I know, right? It’s a gift!
A greater impulse toward forgiveness. If you like to win, forgiveness can feel like losing. It doesn’t feel emotionally safe, but it is freeing. The relationship will never be the same, but it can be much better. The Spirit wants us free—and he can and will do it. Lord, have mercy.
A greater response in verbal expression. After Pentecost, the Spirit’s work was synonymous with the spoken word—Word of knowledge, deliverance, proclaiming Word, tongues, healing, and so on. Our words can bear just as much fruit as our deeds.
And then there’s the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5) because God’s more interested in fruit than results. Super important difference to discern.
QUESTION #6: INSPIRE
Scripture and tradition beckon us into the rich and varied habits that open our hearts to the presence of God. So let us in. Which spiritual practice is working best for you right now?
When our daughter Annika was born 22 months after our son, I wanted to connect with her, which would be different from my son. Journaling was not my thing, but having a daughter was new territory. Two ideas motivated me: I knew that the older she got, we’d eventually reach a point where words would fail us, and I’d decline into dad jokes, the reputational risk for her, and friends carrying more clout than dear old dad. I wanted her to have a record of our love before her earliest memory. The second piece was a desire for her to adopt a living faith in Jesus, not just a programmatic, “get saved to avoid hell” faith. I had a distinct impression I took to be of God, saying, “You got it half right. Yes, be Christ to her. But I also want to teach you about me through her, so take note!”
And so, for 13 years—as an act of faith—I kept a handwritten journal of how God was revealing, teaching, convicting, and reminding me of him through her. It was a special gift for her 13th birthday. Over time, I went from a regular “jotter” of lists, ideas, or quotes to a semi-regular journal keeper. Now, I spend every day writing for a publisher, a doctoral program, and outlining talks. I love the power of story, metaphor, and playing with words. Writing helps me with one of life’s universal challenges: finding the words for what I feel deeply, even allowing God to re-sensitize my heart. It’s like growing my personal thesaurus to communicate with people and God.
QUESTION #7: FOCUS
Looking backward, considering the full sweep of your unique faith journey and all you encountered along the way, what top-three resources stand out to you? What changed the game and changed your heart?
Our greatest earthly resource is relational capital. I keep game-changing relational pursuits that shape me, keep my heart supple, and cultivate a growing awareness of the presence of God:
At 22 years old, I was invited by Tim Elmore out of the crowd to be discipled, which was more like a spiritual apprenticeship. “Dave, I don’t really want to teach you anything new. I just want you to know how to give it away.” This introduced me to a way to see the image of God in others and calibrate my life in light of the mission of God as a “sent one.” It allowed me to shift faith from something to be consumed to something to be reproduced. It has affected every relationship I’ve had since!
The Quakers practice gathering a “clearness committee” when a person or family faces a big decision or difficult season. These people in their extended faith community are wise, often older, in faith to ask non-leading questions. I have a handful of friends, advisers, and mentors I lean on in times of uncertainty, struggle, and pain. But they’re also the ones I brainstorm and celebrate wins with. As a pastor, I was always struck by how little people sought counsel, especially regarding how a decision might impact their families and faith.
I practice a discipline of gratitude. It’s not so much thanking God each day. Rather, it’s identifying qualities consistent with the character of God and how I see Christ in a person. I try to offer it in the least spiritual but most affirming way. If the conversation has traction, I often get a sense of who they can become in Christ. But I never say, “God told me…” or use God to speak with authority. I simply offer it as encouragement in the simplest and sincerest way possible.
QUESTION #8: DREAM
God is continually stirring new things in each of us. So give us the scoop! What’s beginning to stir in you but not yet fully awakened? What can we expect from you in the future?
As a follow-up to Small-Batch Disciplemaking, I’m crafting a disciple-making field guide unique to parents, Homegrown Disciples: Parenting Rhythms for Drawing Your Kids into Life With God (May 2025, NavPress). It’s a chance to reproduce a living faith beyond a children’s ministry. It’s less about teaching content and more about illustrating the kingdom already present. It’s capturing the divine prompts and moments at bedtime, mealtime, morning times, and drive times. It’s realizing what God’s been doing and telling your story in light of God’s story. Can’t wait!
